Activate Your Audience!
Welcome to Activate Your Audience podcast! Here, you'll find a range of episodes discussing all aspects of brand activation and audience engagement, from the latest industry trends to expert insights and best practices.We will delve into topics such as events and experiential marketing, business tips and tricks, and creating experiences, all with the goal of helping you achieve your goals and drive customer engagement.Tune in to learn from the experts and get inspiration for your own brand activation strategies. Subscribe to stay up-to-date on new episodes and join the conversation on @BeImperial on Instagram. Let's activate you, your brand, and your audience together! Learn more about how IBA can support your even'ts team at your brand activations https://iba.imperialbrandingagency.com/i3ba
Activate Your Audience!
Heather Gallagher - Blending Tech with Creative for Unforgettable Experiences
Join us for an exhilarating journey into the intersection of creativity and technology with Heather Gallagher, a trailblazer in event production whose ventures span from the tech realm to the transformative playground of Burning Man and beyond. In this enlightening episode, we peel back the layers of how Gallagher intertwines tech and creativity to craft unforgettable experiences.
Discover how Heather's insights illuminate the delicate equilibrium between passion projects and daily tasks, offering invaluable guidance on stoking the flames of creativity, whether orchestrating a multi-sensory extravaganza or seeking innovation in the mundane.
As we emerge from the shadows of isolation, Heather lends her seasoned perspective on the pandemic's profound impact on human interaction, prompting a reevaluation of community and connection. The hunger for meaningful, sensorial experiences has never been more palpable, and we delve into the essence of community building, social recalibration, and the pursuit of authenticity in a world yearning for genuine connections.
Prepare for a strategic deep dive as we navigate the complexities of project management, ethical considerations in immersive experiences, and the art of starting small to cultivate sustainable growth in entertainment. With Gallagher's expertise as our guide, we unravel the secrets to crafting spaces that foster community, inspire action, and enchant audiences with the magic of storytelling.
Suppose you're passionate about creating experiences that linger in the hearts and minds of attendees. In that case, this episode is your portal to understanding the harmonious blend of innovation and pragmatism in the realm of immersive entertainment. Tune in and embark on a transformative journey with Heather Gallagher.
Want to produce brand activations you are proud of? Learn more about our I3BA package, a THREE IN ONE DYNAMIC Brand Activation SUPPORT service for experiential teams, agencies, and brands.
Subscribe to stay up-to-date on new episodes and join the conversation on Instagram, @beimperial let’s activate your audience!
Subscribe to the podcast for more great episodes!
Share and comment below to let us know what you think.
Need help and support activating your audience? Check us out here
Learn more about IBA
If you are part of an events team, brand, or agency seeking support to leverage your experiential projects, email us at hello@imperialbrandingagency.com
Connect on LinkedIn
See our work
Today we're speaking with Heather Gallagher. She is a dynamic leader for her ability to blend creativity, technology and humanity into stunning spectacles. With 17 years of experience at Burning man and a background in producing high-profile events and experiences, heather's expertise is unparalleled, leading transformative events and pioneering community-building strategies. She is expertise that span across diverse formats, leaving a lasting impression on audiences worldwide. As an integral part of the executive team and founding member of the World Experience Organization, heather's passion for creativity, leadership and consistently delivering unforgettable experiences has made her a one-of-one in the field of events. Welcome to the Activate Yardings Podcast, heather.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for inviting me to be here today.
Speaker 1:So good to have you, so we'll kick it right off. Why don't you, if you don't mind, give us a kind of clip notes highlight of your origin story, a bit about how you ended up where you are today in this amazing world of events?
Speaker 2:I'll try and keep it concise, but I've definitely had a diverse path to getting where I am today. I started in corporate tech. Actually, I've got a master's in computer science and I studied that and jumped into enterprise technology for almost a decade and specialized in telecommunications clients and some middleware programming. So I started in a very traditional environment. Then I discovered Burning man when I moved to the West Coast and kind of volunteered my way in there. I started by doing some creative projects like photography, photo editing, doing a print calendar project Actually it's one of these behind me on the wall and because those were fun and easy and nourishing to me and it was a break from my normal day-to-day job. And then eventually I started to lead tech for Burning man. I already had a relationship and established a reputation with the organization and it was a place I could help.
Speaker 2:Of course, my job there went well beyond technology as a leader there part of the executive oversight, budgets, event operations, volunteer development, leadership development, conferences, staff meetings, happy hours, special events like being a public speaker.
Speaker 2:And then I also kept doing all the creative projects on the side to keep myself sane. What a phenomenon, what an amazing thing that was to be a part of. Eventually, after the better part of 20 years, it was time to go and I looked around and I said what on earth could be interesting compared to Burning man? It's such a singular experience. And I discovered immersive augmented reality, and so I joined a startup in the Bay Area and I created these breakthrough consumer entertainment and brand activation projects using Microsoft HoloLens and our own proprietary software Just absolutely stunning. And what I learned there was that, as a human being, I have this vast creativity and talents and human interaction and spatial understanding and just creativity of bounds, and I've been studying lifelong practices of personal development and human nature, various philosophical systems, and so my creativity just could no longer be confound to traditional digital screens, two-dimension tech or enterprise technology.
Speaker 2:It had to burst out into the human space and inter-gauge with people in the multi-sensory 3D environments that we inhabit once it became possible. So I was like, yay, let's get out of screens and let's get into immersive technology. And then came the pandemic, so it became nothing but screens all day long and then some great adventures in virtual reality and virtual worlds and metaverses and those sorts of things that, of course, got a big boost. During that time Coming out of the pandemic, I also knew people were going to want to get back out of their homes and I spent two years helping to start up a company that produced a monumental immersive art experience, meant to become sort of a new creative ecosystem for artists. It launched in Las Vegas. I left soon after opening and the show closed about a month later. Ticket sales couldn't sustain operations and a whole other drama which we will not go into right now.
Speaker 2:Lately I am tapping into and really driven to craft experience in multi-sensory experiences. We're multi-sensory, dynamic human beings and we can engage with information and experiences with far more than just our eyeballs on screens or even one or two cents. So I'm also I'm that, you know I'm comfortable navigating between the physical, humanistic, digital realms, so I'm kind of really interested in interweaving technological elements and I think that's a great thing to be doing Technological elements into in-person events or virtual events and have them all be supportive for transformative experiences. As an example, most recently I've been helping somebody start up a company focused on immersive music entertainment that's designed to awaken the music within everyone. So that's my jam. How's that? Was that quick enough?
Speaker 1:I love it. No, I love it. I mean it's like a mixture of. You know, silicon Valley means the new age, it means the matrix, I mean in the human experience, which I love.
Speaker 1:But I want to kind of dive into one area that you started on, which was, and then you kind of went back into it, which was, like you said, to keep your sanity, you worked within the creative, and there's this world that we live in, especially as, like both creative and analytical folks, that a lot of us in the event space seem to be kind of like the producer, director, you know the creative slash, you know operator, executioner and the designer. You know, like there is this balance of energy giving activities, energy giving things, and then, like everything in life, we have to do things that we don't want to do. Right, it requires, it's not a bad thing to do things that are out of our comfort zone, but we also don't want to be stuck doing things that we are, yes, okay at, or maybe even we hate, but we can get done, but not at the expense of doing things that actually liven us up right and that actually make us, you know, and our clients and the marketplace more valuable, because we are super skilled, super passionate, usually both right. And so how have you now because it seems you've been very in tune with that I'm sure the Burning man experience had kind of a great you know, catalyst or played a role in that but how do you now play within? You know again, us being adults, we have to adult and do things that sometimes aren't as enjoyable.
Speaker 1:And balancing that work that is required to face resistance, to face discomfort and grow, but also to make sure that your soul and your sanity and your, your things that give you energy, which are different for everybody, you know, are prioritized. Do you have a best practice? And how to you know balance that? Yeah?
Speaker 2:there's so much there to respond to. I mean, going back to what you said about sort of inputs and output, you know, and that sometimes you're on intake cycles, learning and studying, and sometimes you're on creativity cycles where you're generating and there's it's always healthy to fluctuate back and forth between the two. You know, and you said I went into creativity to sort of keep myself sane, but I also went into myself to keep myself sane. So I did, ended up doing a lot of philosophical studies, yoga, meditation, a lot of esoteric traditions, which I just love in our kind of universal principles and archetypes, but also helped me have a context of that I can sit comfortable in this thing called, you know, being a human in an embodied existence and then being in something like a burning man, you know, which is a crucible for humanity in so many ways, in a place of transformation but also then to be of service to them. And I tell people, don't confuse the contents in the container for burning man. It's very structured and in certain cases rigid container to make a place where creativity and, you know, dramatic successes, dramatic failures and all those things can happen within it. And so sometimes the container itself has to be very, you know has to hold strong because there's a lot of people who don't want that kind of place to exist.
Speaker 2:So for me, coming back to your question, you know it's about finding things in every single day, you know, and do I do great? No, it's a practice, just you know. Just like living the practice. Sometimes I'm plugged into the box and I'm working you know too many hours, but then there are days when I'll take a, you know, take a break or I'll just let myself to create a flow. It's extremely helpful.
Speaker 2:You'll get practiced to it, you know, like take a, take a day off of all the devices, not have an agenda, not have a to do list. You'll still get things done. But that's just to kind of flow and see what calls to you. It's amazingly therapeutic. But then it's every day, you know, I enjoy costuming or color coordinate my outfits or setting the table, you know, rearranging corners of my room, whatever it is where I can find those little little wrinkles of creativity and expression and just scratch my itch. Plus, in professional environments, right, and I'm spending a lot of time these days with pitch decks and storytelling and helping, you know, investors or partners or whoever understand a project and get them on board with it and just getting into the nuances of the visuals and that kind of storytelling can be a really satisfying creative process if you just embrace it as such.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:And so if I'm hearing you, I think you know you you provide a really good reminder of just tapping into even the little things, like you said, setting the table for me it's like very guy of me, like I'll eat out of the paper bag.
Speaker 1:You know, like I'm just trying to get it done, get on it.
Speaker 1:But enough of those days, energetically, even if things are moving, even if there's quote-unquote success, is like I will be depleted until I, you know, sit down on a strum, the guitar or photography, or maybe even the little things, sit, sit the table and kind of put together a nice play that will help not only in our Human world, but those little things that work too. You know, we are very efficient in the way that we execute as part of teams, as part of startups, and that comes with its pros and cons, right. So I think, remembering that, just like you do in your normal life, in your, your your personal life, in professional life, remember those moments of where we can maybe chime into these like little nuggets of Creativity that don't have to be grandiose, they just have to be something that again kind of spark or at least some extent Slow us down and then, for sure, maybe create that white space that you speak of well, and that's when sometimes the biggest ah ha's come rushing in is when you stop.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes if you're staring at a problem so hard you can't even see it anymore, or if you've just been absorbing information or outputting information, you need to go take a walk or be folding or laundry and all of a sudden it'll be like shoo, oh, there's the answer. So yeah, just like you said, you need to make space sort of for these match for the ingredients to sort of come to bed, come together and cook or to reveal themselves, and often it comes in through a side door when you least expect it and when you're doing something else that's so true.
Speaker 1:That reminds me, was it? It was one of the widening Kennedy founders that that mentioned that right, like this idea of, I think it was a story Around, the Nike, you know, just do it. Or one of those like crazy big campaigns and there was a problem that seemed like an impossible solution, that was requiring simplicity, that it wasn't until this moment, like, I don't know, I'm just gonna give it up to the universe, to the ether, to the subconscious, and just let it go and bam, these ideas come and we hear countless of these right, like how Einstein, or how you know, bait-toe open, how they would Practice the in-between moments of creating space. And even now, as we think about consumers or experiences, just like you know, we're saying at the beginning of the call, like with the pandemic, there is almost, albeit a bit more of like, not even subconscious, it is subconscious but almost an unconscious need from the mass.
Speaker 1:I think that hasn't been, as you know, awaken, I guess, to some extent, to just the reality of the dimensions that we interplay in as souls, as intellectual beings, as bodies, as Emotional, all of the above, like they still require, and even if they're not aware of it, this sense of connection, and so that's where we come in, you know, oftentimes with whether it's through our technical expertise or both.
Speaker 1:You know the philosophical and the spiritual practices as well as you know the work that we do to really kind of Bring those experiences in a way that add value to the marketplace, into the individual. And so I'm finding that more and more people whether it was, you know, ceos that were now at home and leading companies, or us in the events world, we're, like a lot of our world kind of stopped as far as work was right now. We had to adapt into virtual worlds and you know, sitting in front of screens and just how much more palpable it was just this need for, obviously, connection, but also just the need to, as you said, experience multi-dimensionally that we take for granted, even as busy people. You know the, the, the Busy New Yorker who's just walking down the street, as much as they may be, you know, sucked into whatever their thing is, there are still sensory Situations going on around in Vegas as you know, right.
Speaker 1:And so like, but at the same time you're experiencing these things, whereas if you're in a bubble, if you're at home or even sometimes in the creative process, if you're in a cycle of you know, downloading or strategizing, there can be these, these moments where you look up or you're waking up and you're like I need some connection. So all of that to say, how have you found within the end consumer, the, the kind of audience being served? How do they Maybe respond? Or has there been, like any from your perspective, awareness for them, recognizing at a deeper level or just in their experience? Have they welcomed that kind of experience, maybe post pandemic or just as a recent, with kind of the new generation, obviously everything that's been going on, that that is different from before. Has that been a thing? Or is it more like people are always Aware and wanting it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. I mean, I feel like it was sort of in two categories, where there were those who were just just raveness for human contact and just through themselves, into, you know, into massive experience and every experiences and every experience available and, and you know, or found ways to get out, you know, sooner than recommended. And then I think there were a lot of people who were then very, you know, still to this day, you know, sort of fearful of really being in close proximity with folks. And then there's a swath of people Did you notice this, I Still say today, but for a while, after everyone sort of came back out, it almost seemed like people forgot how to be like, how to like work the systems.
Speaker 2:Just just Parking or letting somebody go ahead of you, or talking on their phones Like they're the only person in the world, or crossing the street on their phone is like playing music out loud at the restaurant Like nobody's there, just like, really, you know, and I'm not somebody who ever really wants anybody to put their expression, you know, down, like I am devoted to radical self-expression but I'm not talking to my cell phone in the movie, you know, or whatever. And there was, I feel like maybe it settled down, but there was a big path of time where I was, like man, people really forgot how to be with each other again, like and, and there's a few people who became of age, right, a certain teen, demographic and all that where they've now got this, this global fear, baked into them as well, as some of their normal formative moments were Interrupted by the strange circumstance, and so maybe it's a blot. I mean, honestly, I wouldn't have mind missing a couple of years of high school, but you know, that's just in reflection. I mean, I'm sure there's a challenge for those folks to overcome now. So I feel like it kind of depended on the group of of people.
Speaker 2:I do know that people want, you know, more things now that are creating a positive impact in the world. Right, they've had time, they've been home, we've been fed the the fear of all on all sorts of channels. We won't even get into all of that. And then now, as people come out, you know they want something with meaning. They want something that's gonna give them social connection, they want something that's going to help them Maybe make the world a better place, or that's demonstrating a consideration of us as a human species I mean not everybody, of course, but that is definitely a trend that people are seeing is is it needs to have more meaning, because first there was just this, you know, overflow of everything. I mean every rock band ever on the planet touring, you know da-da-da. I think we've now crested into Okay, what's really going on here? And is this a quality use of my time and connectivity with people?
Speaker 1:Yeah, discernment, yeah no, that's for sure. I have noticed, you know, definitely, sort of, and even for me, like I, I would remember Sometimes again back to the silos of creativity, silos of almost extremes being out in events, you know, just again, sensory overload at the highest level and then coming back to the creative sort of solo journey, right being in these moments of like pondering and thinking and reflection, and in either of those experience getting into another one, at least for me, can sometimes be a there's like it's, it's Not smooth always, it can be right and I think maybe as a society, for some of us it was that like as we ventured out or ventured back in, that sort of, you know, I don't know if it relates to the connection piece, but also, just, you know, the, the individual, like, the fear, there's definitely the fear idea of it. But back to even, you know, within um experiences and events, there was just a lot of um, I think, maybe blending of okay, here I am as this participant, or even a part of the project team, and then, once you go back into your sort of like cocoon or in your separate space, there was this familiarity from, you know, those days of, say, like quarantine, or even it's working from home. Now, right, like you're hearing a lot of people who, after working from home younger demographics having their own, you know, trying to find, for example, your partner. Most people find their partner at work, right. And so when, like this, younger generation is all working from home and their single, you know, recent college grads are like, well, where am I going to find my boo? You know, if it's not at work. So there's all these other dynamics, right. And then for everybody else, in different stages, there has been these ups and downs within that and Kind of like spinning it into the next question, I would say, with the aspect of community right, building that into Bernie man, obviously, as you mentioned, with brands and experiences and the consumer demand for more meaningful things, more positive impact building things.
Speaker 1:How have you transferred some of like the Maybe, influences or learnings from burning man when it comes to activating audiences based on community? Because I think that is sometimes the glue that can help us, you know, maneuver these transitions, but also can help brands, you know, build some sort of connection and can help us, like you know, if we love what we do, a large part of it is that is, we love seeing people connected. We love messages activating people Um. I personally love the power of just storytelling and how that can shift ideas from within as well as for communities for the better. So how have you kind of used those experiences and bake community in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, some things, of course, were wakened me before I joined Burning man, but then the 10 principles of Burning man are hardwired into me at this point and part of how I operate in the world most of the time, in most circumstances. A couple of the key tools I use for community building and even building brand relationships is radical inclusion. Okay, first, one of the main tenants of Burning man. I was just trained to seek diverse opinions to make opportunity for people who, if they wanted to contribute something, to make space for them, at least in a consultative manner, even if we didn't end up taking everybody as ideas. Letting people be heard. Planning for a very diverse audience right. You never know who's going to show up, what their background is and where they're going to be from in the world, and just planning for that. Also, being really interested for me and very humanistic in universal topics right. Trying to find things that are really going to relate, that a lot of people can relate to across the board, no matter time zone, language, background, and kind of do things that are going to bring people along, as opposed to make anybody feel excluded or unwelcome at that party. Another one, of course, that I love is Burning Man's radical self expression. In case you can't tell, I'm stuck here. I got stuck in that principle and I won't come out, and I don't think I should have to. I try to create context.
Speaker 2:Burning man was creating this massive container for people to have fun but also to express themselves. It was one of the last bastions in celebrations of human creativity and expression. What a precious thing. What a precious thing, right, when we can create micro versions of that, where people can have fun and express themselves and give them permission and encouragement to do that.
Speaker 2:From a very young age, we're told, right like this do this dress, that be that doctor, lawyer, fireman, whatever. Because we grow up, unfortunately, we forget how to play and that we can color outside the lines. It's just a crayon on a piece of paper. Everybody like don't panic.
Speaker 2:I think it's very important to do that because everybody wants to be a part of the story, right? So people like to co-create. They want to. They develop a closer relationship with an experience or a brand or each other when they're an active participant and a contributor and are helping to author or have some autonomy and have some sort of agency within an experience, just like a choose your own adventure video game or all sorts of immersive entertainment experiences, or even weird books where you pick a different chapter and skip around. But it means so much more for somebody if they're part of the party, part of the story right and contributing to it, and then they take ownership of it and they feel like they belong. And so that way you're making people not just participants, not consumers, but participants, and it touches them in a deep, deep, deep manner when now they feel like they're on the other side of the velvet rope, if you will right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes absolute sense, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean. And then one other one that's definitely important for all kinds of experiences and any kind of narrative or transformative is communal effort, which is another Burning man principle. I've seen through pandemic and highs and lows and all the resilience that comes from being in community and the value of shared experiences. When people have the opportunity to work together to solve a problem or overcome something that needs to be overcome like a real struggle, like an actual you know varying degrees of real struggle and real challenge. If people come at it together, they bond together as a community Gets them outside of themselves often and they start to maybe be part of you know. Something for a bigger picture and that forms really lasting impressions and lasting connections is when people you know when, literally when they have to reach inside themselves and have a micro little moment of transformation that's going to release them and release things within them that's going to have make them have a much more powerful experience in community together. How about for a couple?
Speaker 1:No, I mean back to you know. I think that the two things that stand out for me in that is just as you mentioned, people want to be involved in stories. We all are loving us, we're story loving creatures, right? The stories what moves everything in some aspect. And so, of course, why wouldn't we all want to include or be included in a story, and why wouldn't that work for a brand, for an experience, for everything?
Speaker 1:Like it's it's an old brain at some extent, but it's a thing that just because it's simple, it doesn't mean it's easy to execute, but also it doesn't mean that people don't forget it oftentimes.
Speaker 1:Brands forget it oftentimes and either want to talk about just themselves or, you know, there is obviously the game of exclusivity and these ideas. But when it comes to a real immersion and, as you mentioned, the sort of tenants for maybe infinite games or or the building of community and its truest sense, it does, I think, have to include that sort of inclusion as well, as you know the game of that. And one thing too that kind of just popped up is when we think about gamification, like it's become more of a dirty word, right, in terms of, like the slot machine effect of apps. You know the the sort of addictive tendencies of gaming, because, again, we love games. Games are hardwired into our evolution, right the hunt, and at the same time, as you put it, when we are faced with a challenge, be it to figure out what the next you know, witty thing is to say on that tweet, or how to make sure that our post lands on, you know, the LinkedIn algorithm or Instagram or whatever it may be.
Speaker 1:There is this sort of like striving.
Speaker 2:That is like a my, I mean real challenges like dinner kind of challenge or more.
Speaker 1:But in our brain it all plays the same right and imagine, like, as you mentioned, putting that in in the, in the event, in the experience. Those are the challenges that I think, as you say, get us out of ourselves so that we are not so complicit in being a part of sort of the kind of, you know, gross way of playing games. And if you are more aware of, like real games, real things, then these things become so much more like obsolete. Like I just turned the notifications or the color screen on my phone to black and white and it's so weird, right, like the thing that pulls you to your phone, the thing that gets us, is like these colors. And again back to Vegas, it's the flash, it's the light.
Speaker 1:When this is black and white the world looks so much brighter, right, like we recognize, even if it's a hard situation, even if, as you said, how do we figure out how to survive this rain or make sure that this project gets completed? Like it's a real thing. That is a lot more exciting, a lot more vibrant, even if it's tough in real life.
Speaker 2:So one of my favorite quotes is without the darkness, the light would not shine so bright. Very true, so we need these juxtapositions and we need, you know it metaphor and truly right. We need, we need dark moments, we need highlights, we need challenges, we need, we need the happy times because they they help us understand each other and relative relation to each other and in relation to ourselves.
Speaker 1:So a thousand percent. And with that, talking about challenges, how did you face and maybe what are some of like the challenges that you encounter regularly when it comes to, like, producing experiences anything that's still surprised you. Obviously, in our world, like there's always something wrong, there's always a chance to overcome anything that frustrates you, that you see happening from a sense of like, why hasn't this gotten, why hasn't this changed? Or even how you adapt to sort of the ongoing or new problems that may arise.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, at the biggest, most metaphysical level, what's with all this paperwork? Sorry, just kidding conflict. Thank you for this blessing of life. What's with all the paperwork? You know there's this eternal challenge. It's just if anybody can figure out how to fix it.
Speaker 2:It's always surprising me, though, is how many people think that they can get extremely complex and complicated projects done like overnight and in an instant. I mean things with lots of moving parts, a ton of collaborators and external parties. You know, it doesn't matter if you're building technology projects or producing an event or designing an experience or doing a brand activation Across the board. You know, there will be some set of leaders who somehow feel like they themselves and their projects are not bound by the same limits of time and space as the rest of us seem to operate. You know, and I've been on both sides, okay, I've been on the implementer side, I've been on the decision-maker side, and I've seen, you know, people take a long and sweet, leisurely amount of time to make their decisions or give approval, or go back and forth.
Speaker 2:Meanwhile, a delivery deadline is not moving, and you know, and so they get this nice spacious, you know, time to come to conclusion, which is not as easy as I'm making it sound, but it sometimes is. And then the people who actually need to produce or design or deliver it. You know, up to very high standards, have you?
Speaker 2:at this my day, my day, and to produce a miracle and you know. But like everybody needs to get real. Like everything is going to take three times as long as you think it is. Between lawyers' contracts, approvals, changes, deliveries, holidays, sick days, sick kids, mercury and retrograde. Like da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, it's going to take three times longer.
Speaker 2:Like one of the first rules is a project manager, director or anybody. As soon as somebody's like I need a week in the back of your pocket, you're writing three weeks, right, so that is the ultimate universal conundrum. Some ways, I think you asked you know how have I handled it? Every once in a while, if you get really lucky or have the right client or you know internal client or customer or collaborator or decision maker and really a sob about it, you can find a way to make them a part of the project execution team, right? Like maybe they need to, you know, not just from an overview site, but maybe they need to deliver a piece of content or participate in testing.
Speaker 2:Or I sometimes have double-dog dared people to show up and work the gate or be a brand-and ambassador or come do an hour in the field, right, to see the thing actually happening, and it kind of helps permeate a little bit between the like on-high white tower of decreeing, you know, decisions to having some fun, having some skin in the game, realizing you know that they got to like, they got to snap to it and deliver or show up and be a part of the delivery of it, and I found that that can actually have some really profound moments. You can't always get away with it, but sometimes you can find people who are game, you know, and they'll appreciate it actually.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 2:I like that, maybe the next time, maybe the next time I'll give you a little bit longer runway.
Speaker 1:It helps them see it could also backfire on you, right, Like if they'll actually being in the way when they can help, which again, all the intention is good, but something you said there too, that definitely is. I wonder the six working geniuses like the ideas around, like personalities, and the six working genius framework.
Speaker 2:I think I have, but I definitely don't not familiar with it.
Speaker 1:So there's like six different work types. Some of what we were talking about in the beginning, of things that give us energy and things that drain us. But in a project and this is from a fable, right, the story is told is like this agency and they figure out, okay. This is why the CEO is getting frustrated. And the CEO would do a lot of these things where he would. He was an inventor, right. So the first two that are needed to craft an idea, to begin a project, is you need a wonderer and an inventor, right? So the person's going to ask the big why? Well, why is this this way and why is that? And then the inventor is going to come up with innovation and vent. But sometimes, if they're only in those phases and not in the executioner and the completion stages that's the beginning phase they will do that, right. They'll create and in their mind they're just inventing. They can't help. It gives them energy.
Speaker 1:But then, when it comes to like the actual work horses, right, you have like your enablers, the person who like, gets it, loves to work, loves to just kind of be the work horse, the helper, the provider, the executioner. And then the galvanizers like the person that's, like the driver. You know, they like like, hey, how are we moving on this? Like the project management folks are, you know, galvanizers. And then the other two are like your tenacious folk, the tenacity folks, the one that just wants to finish it. Once they begin something, they like to carry it through. And then the other is the reason, or almost like the person, that they call it discernment. So it's the person that almost like will be almost a filter of like. They have good taste. They may not specifically know a lot about programming, but they'll ask well, why are we putting it this way? User experience, like. They just have this way of like, having almost this wisdom of like, questioning the things before they get executed.
Speaker 1:So in my understanding of that, it's like back to energy and how we work as a team, sometimes from the top down. Yes, it could be that they're so disconnected or just again they have their own boss pushing deadlines on them, etc. But even at the top, the theory is that if these individuals can understand and have conversations with everybody that plays these different roles, understand where they're strong, understand where they're weak, understand where they're good enough, but they don't get energy from those, are like less likely to happen. These sort of like here all my ideas make it happen, or here why it's going to be how and why has to be executed by X deadline.
Speaker 1:So part of my thinking is, you know, it'd be a thought experiment just to see how much of that request and just endless scope creep sometimes can be coming from somebody who is again at this, maybe inventor mode, and doesn't recognize like the workhorse has these different contingencies and nuance that require that. And I think the solution of that, like getting them in there, helps maybe for that reason. Right, like maybe helps them. See, like one I'm not into this, but they are and so they should be doing it. And even if I get into this and I'm capable of it, like it's not realistic. Like there's physics, as you mentioned, and weather and sick kids and all the above that you called out.
Speaker 2:So yeah, just something to come to you on. I mean, I wish you know many work environments had the interest and the capacity and the you know even feels like spaciousness enough for everybody participating in a project to even understand their work style and contribute. But everything enneagram, astrology, all these different you know how do you show up for work? You know kind of programs like even to just sit around and be like oh, who are you, what are you, what do you bring to the table? You know, to me I love that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:I have to secretly find out people's birthdays and things. I don't care about the year, but I want to know am I, you know, who am I dealing with here? Because then I know what their strengths are. I know where they might get stuck in things. I'll fully own my thing and we're able to, you know, be like hey, can you come do that practical Virgo thing or whatever, and it's you know. But we so rarely just do. People want to, you know, are willing to engage in that kind of, you know, sharing and reflective and kind of that meta practice around collaboration. Now, some people do that stuff and they just get stuck in meta and that's a whole other podcast too, they're just facilitating themselves all day long.
Speaker 2:You're like get to the end where you actually are doing something. But I just love that, you know. I mean if, if, if groups were able to do that, where it's like let's everybody put your cards on the table and then let's stack them in a way that's going to get us there, like that would be fun, wouldn't it? We?
Speaker 1:got to figure that out. There's a there's a nut to crack. So, with spinning into maybe like roles, what roles do you believe that? Various elements, you know, these immersive experiences, these multi-sensory experiences, what do they play in creating the memorable experience? What other value do you really find that has been maybe surprising within that sort of experience?
Speaker 2:I mean, immersive technology is definitely a huge breakthrough, right, I mean, for me as a technologist studying for a lifetime, literally you know, black screens with green words. For far too long I was like finally we're getting to the good stuff, like finally, right. But you know, to immerse human beings, to envelop human beings in digital content, or to present 3D digital content like into our human spaces, is such a powerful storytelling information, you know absorbing, you know environment, it's phenomenal. You can develop greater empathy. You can help have people very carefully witness scenarios that you know they might not otherwise really be able to get really an abstract concept to them. You can literally present abstract concepts to them. And now they, you know, imagine watching sea level rise and instead of it being a chart on a table in front of you, you're now watching something happen, like around you. I mean the power of it is just profound and you know and I've gave some key notes about how, you know, some of these immersive technologies are some of the new blank campuses for humanity and we're really still just getting our feet into it. But it's also a tremendous responsibility, right, tremendous responsibility, like just I mean, if something terrible is coming through me on my two screens, right, you know, at least it's that box and I can put the lid down right and be like, oh, that's, I don't want to watch that right now. But you know the images, the ideas, the stories, the circumstances that we put people into in digital environments. It's incredibly important to be careful and to treat, you know, to remember just how sensitive, and you know, we as human beings are on every level when you're doing it.
Speaker 2:That's one reason I got into immersive tech is, after, you know, decades of helping to cultivate a civic and creative but generally like good neighborly society out, you know, and burning man in the community. I was like, well, who's fostering the community and who's helping to shape how we get together in these virtual worlds? It's going to be gamers and porn people and you know, whatever it's going to be something that I have, you know, learned over the years in all of these dimensions, you know, as a value to then helping to define how we both act together in these digital spaces. And then now I'm really about the boundaries between the two. It's really fascinating, right. That edge is we're interweaving more and more technology and with our physical spaces. We've always we've had these screens now for a long time, but now we're we're going well beyond. We're going well beyond the screen game now and I think it's it's phenomenally interesting and also, you know, very important to use the right tools for the right thing at the right time.
Speaker 1:That's so true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's a massive reminder we are creating, you know, like any great tool, the power to cook, the manner to cook its food it is important to have folks who are spearheading it and who are deploying it in a responsible way.
Speaker 1:It almost reminds me of, like you know, obviously within the event space we have a lot of waste right, and it gets used the number of just non-renewable products, with both of those worlds you mentioned.
Speaker 1:You know, even, like the immersive way of showing, like actual sea levels rising and making a story and an immersive show of what world cancer is supposed to.
Speaker 1:You know, global warming, like the stories and the narratives and the wordings that can carry a bit more depth and connection, those ways of maybe multi-problem tackling right, like if it's what we'll waste at this festival do, for example.
Speaker 1:This is why we are opting for I don't know digital maps and apps instead of a physical map, and part of the experience being this immersive story that for certain audiences in certain places, if the public were to complain or just see a loss of value in this quote, unquote convenience being done, like, let's say, the paper or the plastic straws thing, if people were so upset about it, if part of the immersion, was this experience that show again a visual thing about what the benefit is of the straws and even like obviously we want to play to people's egos at times like just the virtue that they can have by being these great non-sea killer, non-sea creature killers right, because something like that, where sometimes the same technology can build compounding tool or compounding solutions, but also, as you mentioned, like whether it's porn or any sort of like hateful or destructive or just not even completely evil, but just selfish or self-interested agendas that can also use and deploy the sort of power that's important to have, I think, good, not only people like you who are going to spearhead it, but have the conversations, just like we have been having about waste, and I think that started to create again new solutions, new businesses.
Speaker 1:Have you found any sort of traction or ways? Obviously you mentioned keynotes, but any other way that you have been able to move that conversation forward or any, I guess, opportunities that you see to make that more of an actionable thing.
Speaker 2:I do know some people right now I've started working in immersive entertainment right, so it's a broader, multi-dimensional category than just immersive tech, and I do know some people who are working to make immersive fun, beautiful, immersive experiences that also make a positive impact on cleaning up the oceans, mental wellness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and I think that that's beautiful and sometimes you can bring in the immersive technologies. But now immersive technology is also you go into a room and the things that you would normally put a headset on, you can, as a group of people, can be in these real-time generated digital environments that are literally swirling a story and a narrative around you, with you at the heart of it also an immersive technology. So absolutely, absolutely watching, literally was on a call today with somebody who had a very successful immersive dining experience where they're brought in ocean-friendly food created by a chef, things that are perhaps helpful if you harvest and eat, as opposed to going after the things that are already scarce, and then had digital environments around that show here. This is the underside of the mangroves and here's these creatures and here's what happens when here's ocean plastic, move people to tears and got them up the next day. And they showed up and did beach cleanups. Let's do that right. Let's do that with everything we can whenever we can. It's basically my answer.
Speaker 2:There's also been some community gathering ones, like going back to Burning man. Deep in the pandemic there was the Burning man was canceled, and then it moved to eight or nine different metaverse virtual platforms, which was unprecedented. I had left the year before to go work in immersive augmented reality. Everybody was like what? And then the next year there was almost 10 different kinds of reality Burning man. They were like did you, how did you?
Speaker 2:I was like I don't know. But for us to be able some of them were quite successful and so to connect in a it was a completely alien environment, right, but yet it was entirely familiar. And then to know that a bunch of my friends were around the world with headsets or they could do it from their laptop. But then to be in a space that we can hang out and share experiences, like it was a Burning man, where we could fly. I'm all in for that. And then at some point you look around and I looked around and I was like it's my same people hanging around, talking about the same stuff, you know, except we're a thousand feet in the air above some epic art project Like so how's the kids?
Speaker 2:You know, but, yeah, incredibly healing and for people to have that engagement and connection across time and space. You know, at a time when everyone was really isolated, you know that those those kinds of opportunities people get together and go to massive concerts in these virtual worlds. People spent hours and hours and hours in virtual game environments and I used to be like they're just shooting stuff and I don't want to shoot stuff, right? No, no, they have all these side doors and hangout zones and conferences. It's like this online conference with all their buddies where they can go, be free, because they can't leave the room, right, because they're, you know, either isolated because of a pandemic, or they're 12 or whatever, or they just choose to be there because they've got to develop a bunch of friends. So those things can be accepted. They can be wonderful, right? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, community building components. I think that, yeah, there's definitely something there. And again back to how does the individual play with it, how did the companies play with it, how do us, as facilitators of it, wield that responsibility, you know, I think, healthily. So last question what principles do you prioritize when you are in the designing or creation mode, or even in the production of these experiences that help you, you know, ensure that the audience engagement is as optimal or as positive as possible?
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean I don't necessarily have them carved in stone, but maybe next time, but there's definitely some basics. You know, I'd say I mean it's obvious, but like, do no harm. Right, do no harm. Treat each guest, visitor, participant, potential person will drop by as if you know they're a sacred being, because they are and you want to make sure that again, you're being inclusive to everybody and that you're not supporting one group or one message, that you're not, you know, definitely not intentionally causing our harm or making somebody else feel bad. You know, keep it simple.
Speaker 2:As another favorite one, you know we, as a event and experienced creators, we have these narratives and these tools and these gimmicks and these things and we want to get so much done and we want to see. You know, we want to build on things and we want to take people's on these journeys and they're elaborate. It's like just calm down, like there's only like if you're creating an immersive environment or an experience or an event for somebody there, you know they've already had to go through a lot just to get there. If it's the first time they're being introduced to a technology or some kind of innovation, you know there's only so much that they can absorb. There's only so many messages they can absorb. There's only so many plot twists, like it's okay to actually take all that stuff and carve it into a bunch of chunks and then do a part two and a part three. You know, another favorite we and you and I talked about this earlier is is give everybody a little breathing room, right, like some pauses, an opportunity for our integration. If you're just in people's faces with message messages, various, various, various, various, various, like they need, sometimes they need to, you know, sit down and have a drink of water and talk with their friend about it, sometimes they might just need to go, like sit down and be like, oh, that really made me think, and we too often we don't really leave spaces like me talking real fast right now.
Speaker 2:But I got a few other points to make. We talked about making the audience part of the story, right, inspiring them to participate, but you also got to read the room and there's got to be levels to bring people in it, like I just want to put my toe in or I'm full in right, and having different ways of letting people participate to their degree of comfort. We talked about having worked together. We talked about struggle. Okay, here's my I think some of my favorite ones is give people permission to play Right. Just just don't over architect their experience. Give them some things and see what they do with it. You should have fun with creating what you're creating for them and they should have fun with it. And if you've had fun doing it in a little sense of humor and a couple of little surprises and you make a space where other people can have fun with it, like everybody's going to win.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's so good. So I'm going to run it back. I'll highlight kind of what stood out for me and then fill in anything that I might have missed.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I would start with nourishment and development within, as well as to the marketplace.
Speaker 1:I think one of the first points that really stood out is, as we were mentioning, for an individual on the self development journey, the career journey, we evolve in our technique and our skill set, but also just developing what is obviously our mindset or soul and spirit is the same.
Speaker 1:We'll have the same impact in the marketplace, right? So if you're developing your festival, your activation, as much as you, you know, develop yourself, there's can be, there's not always, but there's a correlative kind of growth in that. And a key part of that, which I think we did a full circle on, is creating that white space for oneself, right, making sure that we are investing in the times or just recognizing the moments to slow down to whether it's creativity or stillness, usually both that help each individual recharge, not needing to be anything complex, as you said, it can be just setting the table instead of eating out of the paper bag. Taking the photography day, taking the unscheduled day, is one of those things that, as much as you want to be, whether in your organization or in your private life, efficient and productive and a growth mindset individual, sometimes the best growth can come from that space.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's good to play hooky.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. And then the second point is I think people want to participate, as you mentioned, as autonomous beings. They want to participate not only being included, but being part of, you know, the the co-creative force, I would say, of an activation and that being a win-win right, both for the experience producer and then for the participant.
Speaker 2:That one, because I don't think we mentioned it. Look, a bunch of selfie stations does not make an immersive experience or a great event. Yes, people need a photo moment, but that doesn't. That's not enough to count as being co-created or part of the story. I'm just.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying facts, facts, you know. I think we do have way too many selfie experiences. There's a demand for that and, at the same time, it's like that's that's what we're speaking about when it comes to fully immersion or collaborative right. And speaking back on that, I think the next point is a little bit related to that, which is collaboration with leveraging strengths of an individual. Again, this is more from like the team environment. If we can understand both our strengths, our weaknesses as well as the others, how much better we can produce things. And I think, in the same way, if we understand who our audience is very well in nice ways that we can. Maybe there's a certain type of audience that loves a lot more white space, right, as you mentioned. I think we all do sometimes a service. We can do a disservice by just blasting too much, you know, lack of white space, but each audience is different and sometimes understanding just how the individual has the strengths and these sort of re-energizing points. If we recognize the audience's points and moments of re-energizing and sort of energy depletion, we can create and co-create better.
Speaker 1:The next one I picked up on was the immersive technology again as a blank canvas and the powers of it that need to be wielded responsibly. And, lastly, doing a service. You know, as you mentioned, do no harm. I think we aspire to go a level above and actually do good. Right and an important, I think a very simple aspect of that is simplicity itself remembering that simple scales and fancy fails, right. Like anything that is going to grow big, even if it's simple, it will eventually scale to complexity and oftentimes we try to get fancy with it and then as it scales, fancy turns into a wreck, right. So I love that idea of just fancy. No, simple, yes, it will eventually evolve.
Speaker 2:Anything else that you might want to throw in there that I missed, what I would add to that list of you know insights is also to remember to you know we did say keep it simple, keep it small, but I think also building things incrementally and in modules. You know, testing things out again. Don't go for the full epic, most complicated production right off of the bat, but how how can you add incremental things to it, see what works and grow over time? A lot of people think they have to. You know, go all the way to the biggest, baddest thing, you know, right out the gate and that's. It can be a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 1:And thank you so much, heather. Where can people learn more about you? Plug in anything that you got going.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm working on things that are under wraps right now, but I do have a website, heathergallagherme, with stories and pictures and previous works, and sometimes I had to go visit all sorts of immersive entertainment experiences and do write-ups about them, so that's a good place to find me, and then all sorts of links to other other topics from there.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thank you so much. Looking forward to connecting again and I appreciate your insight.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you. Thanks for the invite.